Is iOS unnecessarily making two iCloud backups of the BM3 database ?

edited April 2018 in Support

Hello. When I backup my iPad to iCloud it shows both BM3 & Files app being backed up, but doesn’t Files already contain all of BM3’s content ? So does this mean there are effectively two backups of BM3 to iCloud, one with all the samples and banks etc from within the app itself, and one with all the banks and samples etc from within the Files app. Basically two backups of the same thing?

To conserve iCloud storage, should I disable the BM3 backup, as it seems to be a mirror image of Apple files ? They are both big backups around 12 gbs each, so it seems like they are referencing the same thing, and taking up a lot of iCloud storage space. So my question is, is it safe to delete one of them ?

Comments

  • edited April 2018

    The Files app provides access to your local BM3 folders, but doesn't create copies of them or back them up online (as far as I know, hence the reason it differentiates 'iCloud Drive' vs 'On this ipad' in the left menu).

    No BM3 files are kept in your iCloud drive unless you manually move/copy folders to it yourself

  • The files app references the bm3 folders however upon attempting to backup my iPad to iCloud I suddenly ran out of room. And it now seems that although files app may only be referencing the samples, iCloud is also making an entire backup of the whole files app (which contains all of bm3).

    This seems to be the case as both the bm3 and the files app backups are a similar size, as I mainly only use files app with bm3. So whereas before I had a 12 gb bm3 backup to iCloud, I now have that plus a new 12 gb files app to backup.

    I wanted to see if someone else could corroborate this though to be on the safe side, as I’m nervous to delete one, even though I’m pretty certain they are duplicates. But not sure which one to delete or not backup. The files app contains data from other apps so probably best not to delete that. So I think setting bm3 to ‘not back up’ should be ok, as the files app will be backed up, which is the same thing containing all of bm3.

  • edited April 2018

    I think we need to be clear about differentiating iCloud backup from iCloud drive (two different things) - I'm sure you knew this already but it helps avoiding confusion if we use these names.

    You can't access the iCloud backup in Files app, only the files that are in your iCloud Drive

    Do you remember specifically copying any of the folders from BM3 to iCloud drive?

    See video below for an example of how you duplicate folders to iCloud drive (strictly as a backup/device transfer strategy)
    https://intua.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000027994-Making-a-backup-of-your-content-using-iOS-Files-app

  • edited April 2018

    Yes I know the difference. I’m talking about iOS making a back up of the Files app which contains the bm3 database. As well as iOS making a backup of bm3 itself. Which are both same thing it would seem. Not iCloud Drive. That’s something completely different.

    It seems that iOS makes a backup of the files app. If this already contains all of bm3s files (even if they are just referenced files) then it looks like you are effectively getting two backups. One from files app one from bm3. I say this because of the size of the backups. They have effectively now doubled as far as I can tell. Leading me to take it that there is a duplication of bm3.

    Try backing up and see what you find.

  • Also, if you look at the details of your iPad's iCloud backup in 'Settings > Apple ID' you'll see there is no entry for the Files app itself (only for iCloud Drive)

  • Cant say i have done this, but just backing up files app makes sense, this should back up all data by apps that use the file app, backing up bm3 individually too would seem like overkill.

    I cant test for you today, but i will try to remember in the next couple days and confirm for you.

  • edited April 2018

    Thanks. I’m fairly sure I’m right but need confirming. I was confused because like @tk32 says there is no files app when you look in the choose data to back up section. The reason I suspected files app was being backed up though was, it tells me the next backup size is 24 gbs but when I look in the choose data to back up section, the apps only add up to 12 Gbs. So there is an unexplained 12 gbs being backed up and I can only deduce it must be from beatmaker.

  • edited April 2018

    Have you looked in settings and checked what file system Beatmaker is using ?

  • Remember that your total iCloud quota is a combination of app data PLUS device system backups.

    It's possible the other 12gb is caused by device backups on iCloud .. especially if you have multiple Apple devices linked to the same AppleID.

    Therefore, it might be worth deleting the backups for any old devices you no longer use.

  • Ive never even done a back up on IOS, so this will all be new to me too hahaha.

  • @5pinlink said:
    Have you looked in settings and checked what file system Beatmaker is using ?

    Not sure what you mean by checking what file system bm is using ?

  • @tk32 said:
    Remember that your total iCloud quota is a combination of app data PLUS device system backups.

    It's possible the other 12gb is caused by device backups on iCloud .. especially if you have multiple Apple devices linked to the same AppleID.

    Therefore, it might be worth deleting the backups for any old devices you no longer use.

    Yes have checked that it includes all other device back ups. It can’t be a coincident that the extra 12 gbs which comes from nowhere else is the same size as the bm3 database. Be interested to see what @5pinlink finds when he does it.

  • edited April 2018

    @groovey said:

    @5pinlink said:
    Have you looked in settings and checked what file system Beatmaker is using ?

    Not sure what you mean by checking what file system bm is using ?

    If you click on Beatmaker in IOS settings, you have some options for where Beatmaker stores its files, the general consensus so far has been to set it to "On my iPad"
    Sometimes it is set to iCloud Drive but the files are still in "On my iPad" in the files app, so it is worth checking that in case it is an IOS bug doubling up the storage.

  • @5pinlink you are spot on. Never even knew about this. I looked in settings for bm3 and it was set to iCloud Drive as you say.

    So to get my head around this, this means that bm3 data for me is currently being saved to iCloud Drive and also separately to the Files app, hence the seemingly doubling up I seem to be finding ?

    Once the iPhone and Mac desktop app comes out I guess using iCloud will be ideal in terms of syncing between across all devices. I’m just not sure how to stop the Files app from backing up a duplicate of the exact same info ?

    To stop duplication, it would seem best to save bm3 data to ‘on my iPad’ and use the files app as normal. But then won’t you lose the ability to sync across all devices when bm3 does come to the iPhone and Mac?

  • @5pinlink

    Update: this gets even stranger. Even though I’ve now discovered bm3 is set to backup on ‘iCloud drive’, I cannot see anything on my iCloud Drive that shows this. There are no bm3 files anywhere there. Unless intua mislabelled the options in the settings page and meant to say backup to iCloud instead of iCloud Drive ? It seems that bm3 is being backed up to iCloud but not to iCloud Drive ?

  • That setting isnt for back up, its just for storage, and nobody has been able to get a definitive answer of what it does exactly, so i wouldn't worry too much lol

  • edited April 2018

    @5pinlink said:
    That setting isnt for back up, its just for storage, and nobody has been able to get a definitive answer of what it does exactly, so i wouldn't worry too much lol

    Ok so I went into settings / iCloud backup and manually set bm3 to not back up to the cloud or sync across devices anymore. And as I suspected it cut in half the amount of storage required to backup my entire iPad. But it’s still a 16 gb backup and I don’t have anything else that makes up that other than beathawk and iSymphonic and gadget and the general system settings which would add up to around 7 Gbs. Which leads me to think the rest of it must be made of the bm3 database In the files app. There’s nothing else it can be. So it seems that when you do an iPad backup it automatically backs up whatever is in the files app.
    Be great if intua could clarify this. It’s important knowing the best way of backing up your work. And they are going to have to Clarify this when it comes to syncing across devices when the iPhone and desktop app come along.

    I am still wary I may have this wrong. And that if I ever needed to erase and restore my iPad that now I have turned off bm3 backup that I will have lost everything. Though as I say I am certain it would still be there as it was saved in the files app.

    Also if the storage setting says iCloud Drive then all bm3 data should be able to accessible across all devices but currently it doesn’t show up on my iPhone when I look in iCloud Drive there, although no bm3 file show up in iCloud Drive on my iPad either. This is important to know what’s going on

  • Nothing is “in” the Files app. It is a browsing application and it stores nothing and is not backed up, except for maybe metadata such as if you tagged files with the Files app, which I only assume would be included in the “system” backup data.

    I believe we determined that the BM3 “document storage” setting in Settings app doesn’t actually save files to the iCloud Drive if you set it that way, so I’ve set mine to “on my iPad” and I’ve also got BM3 set to be included in my iCloud backup. I want to say before I changed the document storage setting, I could see the BM3 files in the “on my iPad” section in the Files app.

  • edited April 2018

    @ronji thanks for the heads up.
    Good to know that ‘store bm3 data’ to iCloud Drive doesn’t work.
    Still a bit confused. When I go to iCloud / manage storage / backups /iPad I have Bm3 set to off for ‘choose data to backup’, and in iCloud I have bm3 set to on.
    What’s the difference between the two?
    I know bm3 is definetly being backed up as there is nothing else on my iPad that takes up 16gbs of space, and this must be because I have set bm3 to on, in iCloud save, but as I said, it is switched off in choose data to backup. If I switch this backup data to on, then my total backup files will double again to 32gbs. This is what was happening before, that made me start this thread. So even though as you said my backup being duplicated has nothing to do with the files app, it does seem there can potentially be two backups nonetheless. Am I right to be turning off data backup for bm3 as it is enough to have just iCloud switched on ? And I as I said, what is the difference ?

  • To be honest, I had a mess with this, I can't find any way for the files app to even be backed up ?

  • edited April 2018

    @5pinlink there isn't a way, it was just confusion. @groovey I noticed the same thing you're seeing as far as beatmaker 3 being listed in icloud > apps using icloud, and also listed in backups > choose data to backup. I just turned off beatmaker 3 in "apps using icloud" and it had zero effect. so, I'm leaning towards the other amount of space being used by something else unrelated to beatmaker 3, which is why when you turned it off in data to backup you "regained" as much storage as beatmaker 3 requires to be included in the backup. note that before and after I toggled beatmaker 3 off in "apps using icloud", beatmaker 3 was not listed in icloud > manage storage - it's only listed in backups.

    general > ipad storage > beatmaker 3: 11.4GB > app size 215.2MB, documents & data 11.18GB
    icloud > apps using icloud > beatmaker 3 was on, now off, no noticeable effect
    icloud > manage storage > 83.5 GB of 200GB used (74.7GB is me, rest is wife), backups: 52.1GB > this ipad: 39.3GB (rest is iPhone)> choose data to backup > beatmaker 3: 10.86GB, backup size 42.19GB, next backup size 355.7MB

    I think the difference between ipad storage and icloud backup sizes for beatmaker 3 is due to compression? Not sure why the backups summary says my iPad backup is smaller than the current backup size in the following screen.

  • edited April 2018

    Some more info
    I made Beatmaker 3 the only app being backed up on my pad, the size of Beatmaker backup was 695mb, the total back up size was 665mb.
    I am going to assume here that it backs up the 695mb minus the actual app (about 200mb or so, looks like it is pulling that from the app store itself) so that would leave 200mb or so for the system data.

    Installed the back up to a second iPad which worked fine but was slow as xxxx, no way i would ever back up like this for Beatmaker personally, much easier/faster to just duplicate the folder structure (again that is personal preference)

  • @ronji @5pinlink thanks for looking into this guys.
    Maybe iCloud saves all the preferences and small user bits and pieces ? And databackup saves the main chunk of samples banks etc ?

    I would never do a reinstall of an iPad over WiFi even with fast fibre bb, only hardwired, but I definitely like knowing everything is always getting backed up to the iCloud in the background without having to remember.

    Am going to check this out again later. Thanks for looking into it.

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