the mutes on the pads cuts audio for samples, iaa and au. the request was to have the pads cut midi for iaa and au so as preserve audio effects tails and envelope releases from synths etc. the new feature stops midi being sent to apps outside of bm3, so you can't have that feature using bm3 as a host. also, the midi being sent outside of bm3 doesn't no receive an all note off message, which makes it only good for getting stuck notes and not very good for spontaneous un/mutes.
If MUTE in sequencer would mute just MIDI (so audio tails will stay), what will do MUTE in sequencer on AUDIO tracks ?? Mute audio in this case ? I think this will be little inconsistent (on some tracks mute will mute just midi, on other tracks audio ?) .. and what will do MUTE on group tracks ??
Basically on al DAW's mute/solo in sequencer is directly linked to mute/solo in mixer. There is nothing like 'mute midi' cause it would trigger lot of contradictions and inconsistencies like those i mentioned above.
That is completely untrue.
Mute on the mixer should always be audio, mute in most DAWs mirror their mixer settings on their track control properties, however, any DAW worth its weight will have MIDI mute options too, most will normally have it direct in the MIDI editor.
In this instance Beatmaker 3 has pad view mutes, these can easily be just MIDI mute, you wold still have audio mute per pad in the mixer and that has no inconsistency at all.
@5pinlink@dendy
interesting point there. is beakmaker just another DAW? because the screen advertised showing the 4x4 trigger pads made me believe it was something more. i've got a DAW called cubasis and as far as DAW's are concerned, that's all i need. all the hardware devices i've used with this trigger pad arrangement were designed to be played live, unlike a tradition DAW where you would mute/solo a track depending on your arrangement. if you imagine using a mpc as an example to sequence a synth,(i use an electribe at the mo to sequence other synths and apps) then muting a track would cut the midi being sent out. au's are just like an external synth is this case. just doesn't make sense to cut the audio of au's. losing fx tails and env releases sounds just plain crap-if you're playing the pads live. maybe the 4x4 is just a cosmetic thing. seems it must be. having to use apps outside of bm3 to get this is pretty sad affair too.
@5pinlink
sorry if there is any misunderstanding. i don't know why i put the tags. i suppose i just wanted some further clarity from both perspectives-changing the behaviour for mutes for au's only could work??
i understand your views on this feature and appreciate them. maybe i'm starting sound like a broken record on this subject. dying man's last request o_O
there was no attitude intended in the comment. it was meant as a self-reference.
i was simply confused. still am but in a different way.
i updated yesterday and stayed up til 4 this morning trying to figure out the exact function of this new feature.
is this intended for stopping midi being SENT to BM3? if so, i don't understand how that misunderstanding has occurred.
sooo....great, that's me stuck with my shitty 4 bar hardware sequencer.
the wonders of the written word and all of it's ambiguities.
sadness covers the sky once again
Bruh it's midi mute... as opposed to audio mute. The midi notes in the track of that bank are muted but any audio, e.g. A release tail or some delay effect will continue to play out. Watch anyone play an electribe for a reference.
man, i've got an electribe! it's my sole bit of kit at the mo. had it for few years now and still love it but the sequencer's a little limited-4 bars/16th etc. bm3 is like a electribe on roids. how are you using the mute, with AU's hosted in bm3? seems to me to be design to stop midi coming in to bm3?? was hoping just to use the electribe as a sound module with AU's inside and being sequenced by bm3. all in one app.
I have a theory that BM3's midi in/out is probably never going to work out the way we would hope for it. The reason has to do with the sheer number of midi channels available, 128*128? I am not a huge techie but I'd refer you to the manual to see how a midi channel gets assigned only after a track is given some kind of sample content. @mathiewgarcia is the authority on this. I don't know if BM3 can work to sequence external hardware without workarounds. Also I don't use AUs because I'm on a Mini 2 and BM3 by rights should run on a Mini 4 or the Ipad 2017 for optimal performance. I just sample my stuff and use BM3 completely standalone.
BM3 can sequence external hardware by loading a sample, that is very much a bug as far as i am concerned not a workaround, if BM3 can sequence unlimited AUv3, it can as a matter of course sequence any other instrument too, an event is an event is an event, and lets be clear, MIDI events are tiny and lack any kind of big resource usage.
Personally i like to look at it this way, take these two scenarios
1 Lets fix the external MIDI support right now
2 Lets fix the external MIDI support when we overhaul the MIDI sub system for MIDI AUv3
I suspect that a lot of MIDI not getting the attention a couple of users are desperate for (Yes we all want it, but some are desperate for it) is simply a case of resources vs time vs making sure us bums get a monthly release.
Remember that BM3 will be a desktop app, so if it will be needed (Great MIDI support is) for the desktop world, then you are going to get it on iPad too.
i had a 1st gen mini with bm3 and it worked!. part X'd for a 2017, so i've been using AU's inside bm3 recently. get lots of stuck notes when using the performance pads to cut n bring in tracks. same with using bm3 to sequencer my electribe. if a pad is muted when a note is on, then that particular note off is not sent. as an experiment i sent an all notes off message to the AU's channel that had stuck notes, which worked. i would have thought that when a pad is muted an all notes off message would of been sent at the same time. presumably that's how sequencing stuff with electribes etc doesn't result in hanging notes. god knows
but.. presumably this is a niche way of playing bm3 (i was a member of the electribe facebook forum, so i watched a lot of those performance vids you mentioned )
and like you say, it's all really complicated coding with so much stuff going on. programming an arduino blink sketch boxed my head. lol
Actually no, all notes off triggered would not be an immediate need, the last note playing should end when it is finished playing, it should not receive a premature note off unless a preference was set that way, a lot of people will want the last note playing to finish its entirety before being muted, otherwise you may as well just use audio mute, which will cut off as soon as you press it (Obviously this wont work with external MIDI though, so yes a triggered note off pref would be needed, which would replicate audio mute for external MIDI)
Like i said before, this is a feature request for a new pref based on this use case, not all users would want or expect this, but that does not mean that it is not needed, not all users wanted the pad mutes to be MIDI mute, this is why i suggested all the prefs that are now there.
You just need an extra pref.
However....
I would suggest that if you have hung notes, then either the AUv3/IAA/Hardware is buggy and not reacting to the note off from the final note event (Unlikely) or you have found a bug in the current MIDI mute that prevents the note offs from propagating (More likely)
I suspect that the way Intua have coded MIDI mute is that it mutes every MIDI message including note offs, and they simply need to add in some filtering code so that it mutes everything except MIDI note offs.
So to recap
1 Bug = MIDI Mute is blocking notes offs.
2 Feature request = Pref for MIDI Mute to also trigger an all notes off.
BM3 might not be a reliable performance tool. Notes can get stuck simply by playing them too quickly. It's a regular occurrence in my jamming but I'm not bothered much by it because I'm more interested in programming songs than playing in a live gig.
Stuck notes are unacceptable in any situation, performance or programmed.
This is 2017 not 1987 haha.
If it is a regular occurrence, explain how it happens and get the developers to fix it.
Comments
the mutes on the pads cuts audio for samples, iaa and au. the request was to have the pads cut midi for iaa and au so as preserve audio effects tails and envelope releases from synths etc. the new feature stops midi being sent to apps outside of bm3, so you can't have that feature using bm3 as a host. also, the midi being sent outside of bm3 doesn't no receive an all note off message, which makes it only good for getting stuck notes and not very good for spontaneous un/mutes.
If MUTE in sequencer would mute just MIDI (so audio tails will stay), what will do MUTE in sequencer on AUDIO tracks ?? Mute audio in this case ? I think this will be little inconsistent (on some tracks mute will mute just midi, on other tracks audio ?) .. and what will do MUTE on group tracks ??
Basically on al DAW's mute/solo in sequencer is directly linked to mute/solo in mixer. There is nothing like 'mute midi' cause it would trigger lot of contradictions and inconsistencies like those i mentioned above.
That is completely untrue.
Mute on the mixer should always be audio, mute in most DAWs mirror their mixer settings on their track control properties, however, any DAW worth its weight will have MIDI mute options too, most will normally have it direct in the MIDI editor.
In this instance Beatmaker 3 has pad view mutes, these can easily be just MIDI mute, you wold still have audio mute per pad in the mixer and that has no inconsistency at all.
@5pinlink @dendy
interesting point there. is beakmaker just another DAW? because the screen advertised showing the 4x4 trigger pads made me believe it was something more. i've got a DAW called cubasis and as far as DAW's are concerned, that's all i need. all the hardware devices i've used with this trigger pad arrangement were designed to be played live, unlike a tradition DAW where you would mute/solo a track depending on your arrangement. if you imagine using a mpc as an example to sequence a synth,(i use an electribe at the mo to sequence other synths and apps) then muting a track would cut the midi being sent out. au's are just like an external synth is this case. just doesn't make sense to cut the audio of au's. losing fx tails and env releases sounds just plain crap-if you're playing the pads live. maybe the 4x4 is just a cosmetic thing. seems it must be. having to use apps outside of bm3 to get this is pretty sad affair too.
Wait, why are you aiming that at me ?
I'm defending your point of view lol
@5pinlink
sorry if there is any misunderstanding. i don't know why i put the tags. i suppose i just wanted some further clarity from both perspectives-changing the behaviour for mutes for au's only could work??
i understand your views on this feature and appreciate them. maybe i'm starting sound like a broken record on this subject. dying man's last request o_O
I dont think you do understand my views, i probably wasnt clear enough.
Mixer Mute = Audio Mute
Pad view Mute = MIDI Mute
That was what i suggested to the developers when asked, that is what YOU want.
i understand your views. that is the best possible scenario.
This is implemented and can be removed from the list now right ?
Yes
yeah, remove it from the list. notes still get stuck when muting but i'm not going to go on like a broken record
Well thats another feature request entirely.
"Add preference so MIDI mute sends all notes off"
Well thats another feature request entirely.
"Add preference so MIDI mute sends all notes off"
words fail me. maybe a diagram would have been better!
i'll ask john cleese to make a film called The meaning of muting midi just for me. lol
So the attitude was for what ?
Dont worry i wont try and help you ever again.
*get it? Mute
Yes i was trolling, WTF ?
there was no attitude intended in the comment. it was meant as a self-reference.
i was simply confused. still am but in a different way.
i updated yesterday and stayed up til 4 this morning trying to figure out the exact function of this new feature.
is this intended for stopping midi being SENT to BM3? if so, i don't understand how that misunderstanding has occurred.
sooo....great, that's me stuck with my shitty 4 bar hardware sequencer.
the wonders of the written word and all of it's ambiguities.
sadness covers the sky once again
man, i've got an electribe! it's my sole bit of kit at the mo. had it for few years now and still love it but the sequencer's a little limited-4 bars/16th etc. bm3 is like a electribe on roids. how are you using the mute, with AU's hosted in bm3? seems to me to be design to stop midi coming in to bm3?? was hoping just to use the electribe as a sound module with AU's inside and being sequenced by bm3. all in one app.
I have a theory that BM3's midi in/out is probably never going to work out the way we would hope for it. The reason has to do with the sheer number of midi channels available, 128*128? I am not a huge techie but I'd refer you to the manual to see how a midi channel gets assigned only after a track is given some kind of sample content. @mathiewgarcia is the authority on this. I don't know if BM3 can work to sequence external hardware without workarounds. Also I don't use AUs because I'm on a Mini 2 and BM3 by rights should run on a Mini 4 or the Ipad 2017 for optimal performance. I just sample my stuff and use BM3 completely standalone.
BM3 can sequence external hardware by loading a sample, that is very much a bug as far as i am concerned not a workaround, if BM3 can sequence unlimited AUv3, it can as a matter of course sequence any other instrument too, an event is an event is an event, and lets be clear, MIDI events are tiny and lack any kind of big resource usage.
Personally i like to look at it this way, take these two scenarios
1 Lets fix the external MIDI support right now
2 Lets fix the external MIDI support when we overhaul the MIDI sub system for MIDI AUv3
I suspect that a lot of MIDI not getting the attention a couple of users are desperate for (Yes we all want it, but some are desperate for it) is simply a case of resources vs time vs making sure us bums get a monthly release.
Remember that BM3 will be a desktop app, so if it will be needed (Great MIDI support is) for the desktop world, then you are going to get it on iPad too.
i had a 1st gen mini with bm3 and it worked!. part X'd for a 2017, so i've been using AU's inside bm3 recently. get lots of stuck notes when using the performance pads to cut n bring in tracks. same with using bm3 to sequencer my electribe. if a pad is muted when a note is on, then that particular note off is not sent. as an experiment i sent an all notes off message to the AU's channel that had stuck notes, which worked. i would have thought that when a pad is muted an all notes off message would of been sent at the same time. presumably that's how sequencing stuff with electribes etc doesn't result in hanging notes. god knows
)
but.. presumably this is a niche way of playing bm3 (i was a member of the electribe facebook forum, so i watched a lot of those performance vids you mentioned
and like you say, it's all really complicated coding with so much stuff going on. programming an arduino blink sketch boxed my head. lol
Actually no, all notes off triggered would not be an immediate need, the last note playing should end when it is finished playing, it should not receive a premature note off unless a preference was set that way, a lot of people will want the last note playing to finish its entirety before being muted, otherwise you may as well just use audio mute, which will cut off as soon as you press it (Obviously this wont work with external MIDI though, so yes a triggered note off pref would be needed, which would replicate audio mute for external MIDI)
Like i said before, this is a feature request for a new pref based on this use case, not all users would want or expect this, but that does not mean that it is not needed, not all users wanted the pad mutes to be MIDI mute, this is why i suggested all the prefs that are now there.
You just need an extra pref.
However....
I would suggest that if you have hung notes, then either the AUv3/IAA/Hardware is buggy and not reacting to the note off from the final note event (Unlikely) or you have found a bug in the current MIDI mute that prevents the note offs from propagating (More likely)
I suspect that the way Intua have coded MIDI mute is that it mutes every MIDI message including note offs, and they simply need to add in some filtering code so that it mutes everything except MIDI note offs.
So to recap
1 Bug = MIDI Mute is blocking notes offs.
2 Feature request = Pref for MIDI Mute to also trigger an all notes off.
Tldr the bug might be something else
Stuck notes are unacceptable in any situation, performance or programmed.
This is 2017 not 1987 haha.
If it is a regular occurrence, explain how it happens and get the developers to fix it.