Scenes
Haven't really used scenes in BM3. Just had a quick look at it. Mixed first impressions..
Pros -
Nice clip flexibility to experiment with different arrangements.
Handles different length cells nicely for polyrhythm stuff.
Cons -
Maybe it's just because I'm used to ableton that I find it weird that tracks are horizontal for scenes? Feel like I have to kind of flip my brain to work in it. Wondering if eventually there might be able to be a setting in options for vertical tracks in scene view, like ableton clips view...
For some reason it seems like the 'Duplicate' function in scenes = The 'Repeat' function in song view.. It doesn't duplicate as a NEW Pattern. Is there a quick way to copy a scene cell that can then be edited without editing the cell it was born from? Scenes is another place where the 'make unique' feature request would be useful.
Anyone using scenes as central part of their workflow?
Comments
For me, it's by far the least used part in all of BM3.
Perhaps if I was more live/jam focused I'd use it more, but for proper composition work, and considering there is no way to write scenes to song lanes, it's pretty worthless to me atm.
like all things though.. YMMV
Tracks are vertical in scene view not horizontal, they go top to bottom, exactly the same as in the arranger ? (song)
Scenes are not of much use to me, if they could be triggered rather than switched i woukx use them a lot, but right now i would rather switch in to either Looptunes or Remixlive or even Launchpad if worst comes to worst.
No triggering, no recording of triggering to the arranger, no use for me.
@5pinlink you can switch around the way you describe it, but in BM3 tracks are listed vertically in the song arranger as rows but the tracks play patterns horizontally, and in ableton live the clip launch view lists tracks horizontally in columns with the patterns/clips playing vertically from top to bottom.
That said I also don’t use scene mode at ALL so I have nothing more to add here
As a long time Ableton user I’d love to use Scenes more, but you can’t record directly into them.... or can you???
I’d also like to be able to place song position markers, then have those be the basis of the Scenes (again, maybe I can?). Export Song to Scenes.
Needs a little tweaking to have the Scenes be more “playable”.
Oh wait, you mean the order of the scenes is horizontal, kind of it plays through the scenes left to right as it where, In Ableton it plays downwards ?
Beatmaker nakes more sense as is because the track control panel never changes, so i suspect this is better for anybody who doesnt use Ableton Live.
@5pinlink sounds logical to me, and as a person who hasn’t used clip launch mode in ableton, and considering it's a bit foreign to those who have, I think a choice of orientation should make sense as an option for feature request. In ableton there are two views, session view (scenes/clips) in a vertical top to bottom play direction, and arrangement view (song timeline) in a horizontal left to right play direction. Not entirely sure why, but Gadget is kinda the same right? Anyway, I think I’d be appreciative of the option to try it both ways, if for no other reason than that I could end up using scenes in ableton more in the future, and setting BM3 the same way would be nice.
Makes no sense at all to me to be honest (not saying it shouldnt be an option by the way, just explaining why)
Tracks are listed in the arranger...
1
2
3
(Top to bottom)
That applies to Beatmaker/Ableton Live/pretty much every linear DAW.
In Beatmaker the scenes are not a separate entity, they are part of the arranger, so parts of the arrangement could actually be latched scenes etc.
So the tracks are listed...
1
2
3
(Top to bottom)
Changing these to....
1/2/3
(Left to right)
Would have no benefit when you consider as i mentioned that scenes are part of the arrangement as a whole.
I would suggest that what makes more sense is an entirely separate clip launch view if Ableton Lives workflow needs to be achieved.
Then you could natively support Launchpads etc designed specifically for Lives layout, because even if you change orientation, the scene view will not work in a similar way to Live.
This could be my complete lack of understanding Ableton Live though.
64 pad view, load clips as you like (Audio or Pattern) any orientation, any type of triggering, any type of choking, just feels a much more robust set up to me.
@5pinlink hmm, yeah I suppose adding a clip launch view would be the ideal solution.
I admittedly don’t know what the benefit is to the vertical clip launch orientation is, but I’d be interested to hear the insight of someone who does!
There are no advantages, why did Ableton do it that way, I would say two possibilities, when they invented clip launching (they didn't but everybody thinks they did, so we will go with that)
1 "We need to separate this from the look of the arranger, so everybody realises it isn't the arranger"
2 Somebody at Ableton once worked at a radio station (we are now back at them not inventing clip launching) where things like Replays etc put related clips in columns, so a DJ could easily go down through there insert clips .
Again if we look at 1 above, it is hard not to have Beatmakers scenes as they are because they are strongly tied to the arranger vs Lives basically being a separate (extremely powerful) entity.
Maybe just habit from Ableton but I much prefer columns for anything non-linear.
Probably entirely psychological but to me it's as alien using BM3's current horizontal scenes as it would be for me to use song view if tracks were recorded/displayed in column strips from top to bottom
I like to have vertical 'stacks' of loop variations instead of having to scan my eye left to right like when I'm working in linear. It puts my mind in a different mode. Probably all conditioning from Ableton but it's very hard to undo it now and kind of a standard that I think BM3 would do better long term to follow, instead of buck against?
Think there might be a LOT more people using the scenes in BM3 if it didn't feel so totally awkward/backward to anyone with background in Ableton.
@5pinlink I'm not sure what you mean when you say that BM3 scenes are more linked to song view than they are in ableton, can you explain please mate as I think i might be missing the main concept behind BM3 scenes. To me they seemed less linked to arranger than they are in ableton? But I only spent 10 mins in them. Will look again later today..
If I was @mathieugarcia I'd definitely look at making the scenes view the same as ableton clips layout. At least as an option in settings. Soooo many people are used to the ableton layout and BM3 scenes feels totally unnatural to me atm because of that..
And its really confusing that 'duplicate' isn't the same function in scene View as it is in song view. Needs renaming to 'repeat'. And real 'duplicate' added...
Here's one simple suggestion that would makes Scenes mode useful...
Propellerhead Reason uses a vaguely similar concept to this called Blocks mode.
@Heyez
What i mean is the clip view in Ableton is basically its own self sustained app, half Ableton live users dont ever even use the timeline and it is their DJ software.
In BM3 scenes view is useful for previewing and inserting to the timeline and little else unless you want to switch everything via touchscreen, to use hardware triggers you have to go to pad view but even then scene view is borked and you can only switch scenes not patterns.
My point is, is it worth overhauling something in to something completely different that works fine now for previewing and writing inserting etc ala Maschines clip view vs just making a full user configuarable clip launcher in pad view ala Ableton, i think user configurable pad view launcher would be a much better idea, again, only spitballing here.
@Heyez do you have KRFT ?
I was thinking of knocking up a clip launcher front end for Beatmaker in that.
Haven't heard of or used KRFT. Will check it out
You can do those things in ableton too if I understand you correctly? Throw clips to/from arranger. And have mixture of arrangement and clips playing at same time etc. That's part of a lot of people's workflow, not just triggering loops in clip view
BeatMaker scenes layout just feels totally wrong/unintuitive to anyone coming from Ableton.
It's not a dealbreaker but something I'd change if I was intua and wanted people to instinctively feel like they really want to make use of the BM3 scenes functionality. No sense in being different for different's sake. Especially against a layout that's as widely established/familiar as Ableton...
It would just be a case of flipping the UI around. No extra code or anything, just a graphics thing and seems like a quick fix. The extended version you mention could come later at some point when they aren't so snowed under in higher priority stuff
Hopefully in future they also add the ability to record scene performance to midi tracks like ableton..
The reason I started to look at scenes was to mess with new multitrack pattern arangements that would be hassle to set up and experiment with in song view. And was planning to resample the scene performance audio to separate tracks. That seems like a solid way to use BM3 current scenes functionality.. I just got slightly thrown by the layout and made me think that most ableton users will probably feel the same way...
It's not a massive deal, I'd probably get used to the BM3 layout if I carried on a while, but an option in settings seems like a relatively fast/easy fix
No offence @Heyez but we don't all come from Ableton, and many of it's particular idiosyncrasies (such as vertical representations of time!) are legacies from version 1, when it tried deliberately hard to break DAW conventions.
BM3 gets it right, IMHO, but now just needs to find a way to make Scenes useful in composition (like my ingenious suggestion a few posts up
)
Familiarity is bunk. If my middle age brain can handle diversity in DAW conventions then so can yours - I'm just surprised nobody has requested @mathieugarcia to match Ableton's colour scheme in BM3 yet , lol.
Ps. Korg Gadget's arranger is a particular head fuck in comparison to both, using a mixture of horizontal and vertical time representation!
No offence taken
yeah I know not everyone uses ableton, but way more people do than use BM3 
Would make sense to have a ui option in settings that didn't alienate that big a portion of producers 
It just naturally feels wonky to me as it is. Whereas something like modstep instantly felt familiar and encouraged me to use that clips grid.
FWIW I bailed on my BM3 scenes exploration after 10 minutes... Down to the brain scramble of using that polar layout. I'm probably not alone in bailing on it like that, so after intua having gone through the effort of building scenes in to BM3, I was just saying that I think more people would be encouraged to properly explore them if the first reaction wasn't 'ah, this feels reeeeeally wrong...'
Also the 'vertical representations of time' you mention is a little off from the way I see it. It's more like a stacked pile of variations to me, when I look at ableton layout. Which makes sense to me for scenes and switches my brain mode out of linear daw style thinking. I think that's the right approach tbh and something ableton has done right, not out of a desire to break moulds etc. That's just me tho and very much down to user preferences, no right or wrong
Please don’t make assumptions for all Ableton users.
Horizontal scenes are also in garageband (mixed with loopy circular representantion) and I will love to have something like this in BM3 for sure.
Ableton live born as dj application without linear recording. Period.
After that they implemented linear and video but with that background (and prototyped in maxmsp) the grid layout made more sense back in the day. Look at bitwig approach and notice how it could be great workflow and no need to “go with standard”.
Also take bitwig as “how many ableton users (includding employee) want something different”.
Ableton as remix tool makes sense with vertical scenes but that’s not truth for every remix/beatmaking app. It’s like “why not add vertical sequencing ala Tracker if they have vertical scenes?”
In fact Trackers were the remix tool standard back in the day (aside you worked in professional studio with expensive samplers and Cubase ancient)
So the best proposal could be “custom view” but after bugfixing for sure. Waste energy on copycat Ableton will be against BM3 spirit itself.
It’s like warping... I asked about it a lot but finally I found workarounds to the point I don’t need warp markers and even I don’t want them. They don’t make sense in chopping realm. These were necessary for Ableton since it born as remix tool clip based without any kind of chopping or reslicing... more similar to bandinabox/acid for electronic music and it had lots of compromises which still are there.
Ableton has become a defacto standard for live acts due lack of true competency and was on the edge over 8.2.5 with the freeze development (which caused the coders splitting and it’s ending on the cycling’74 absortion). As days gone lightweight from Live5 is a memory which probably will mean some sort of “new compromises” in the future (Ableton 10 in 2020/21) meanwhile iOS must converge with macOS even before...
Anyways, we have enough tools at iOS to avoid any single feature of Ableton and most of them inside BM3. So there is no need for “follow the leader” or better said, if BM3 catch the wave of that colliding between iOS/macOS could be the next standard to follow.
ATM is doing quite well and I will be more worried about Logic for iOS than Ableton for macOS.
Another possibility is Ableton going embed (pointed by them in a talk) but that’s another history...
I didn't mean to make assumptions about ableton users. I just worded it badly. Was only saying that for myself it felt really awkward after being used to ableton layout and that I very much doubt I'm the only ableton user that would feel like that when hitting BM3 scenes view. Obviously I didn't mean every single ableton user would feel like that
It felt wrong enough for me to bail on it after 10 minutes. Maybe I'll go back to it and persevere til it feels natural. Maybe not. Whether that's a morcel of significant market research or not is down to intua to decide.
Was just saying I'd like to see a simple 'vertical scenes ui' option in settings. Anyone who digs the current horizontal scenes can just ignore and carry on as they are. No big deal really
And comparing BM3 to ableton 10 is kind of crazy in bm3's current state. I'd love them to be comparable but it's got a long way to go yet.. Both in functions and stability.
That's great you don't want warp markers any more. Doesn't make it same for everyone else tho
They're a part of my every session fast sample mangling workflow on desktop in ableton/reaper/melodyne and I'd still love to see them in BM3. I've never done a remix or dj'd in my life...
Bitwig 'has' to handle scenes horizontally because it aims to work inside one view... BM3 is multi-page views so thats not a design factor...fwiw I dig and use Bitwig quite a lot recently and would love for BM3 to follow it in many aspects. It would require an entire overhaul though. What I was suggesting was just a quick fix option in settings for ableton users like myself that have that format sunk in to their skull
Opinions are opinions of course but quote I did was straight. If you don’t want to sound like general assumption don’t made them.
As compairing Ableton to BM3 isn’t me who ask for vertical scenes
Since Ableton hasn’t an iOS version I supose users like you and me are so glad with desktop software so we discuss this at Ableton forum
Asking for improvements (wishlist) is ok. Trying to force them due what you think is “the best” (and what will bring most Ableton users into BM3) not.
In fact Ableton export will be better advice from marketing POV but again totally unnecessary and against the future BM3 desktop app.
I edited and will try to keep me a bit more friendly. Let’s see how it goes!
Second edition:
Checking the audiokit interview is a must. All of us will find maybe not totally represented but at least is somekind of “roadmap”
Cheers!
"Asking for improvements (wishlist) is ok. Trying to force them due what you think is “the best” (and what will bring most Ableton users into BM3) not."
Likely my intended tone got lost when I wrote the posts/replies but I wasn't originally trying to 'force' any features or compare to ableton in that kind of way. I was just making a settings request because the current scenes layout feels really unnatural to me, enough for me to abandon the session, and made me realise I much prefer using the vertical scenes found in ableton and modstep. I'd just always taken that layout for granted.
To my brain the BM3 layout feels equivalent to if the song view timeline recorded tracks from right to left...
Seems a natural assumption to make that many other people coming from Ableton would prefer a familiar layout. I only brought that up cos I'm pro BM3. Want it to be a big success and to me the current scene view layout is an unnecessary twist against convention which might turn people off of using scenes at all. I can't really change my opinion about that, as much as I'd like to
It's not a big deal though. I can just ignore bm3 scenes altogether like most other people seem to or learn to live with the BM3 way.
OK everybody calm your horses, no flame wars on feature requests needed, considering Ableton Live is one of the most popular pieces of software ever created, it is quite normal to compare and even wish for familarity changes.
If a grumbly old rat bag like me can say my piece without attacking others, so can everybody else.
So either say your piece about how scenes works, how it could or should work, without attacking others, or move on
We dont have enough users here yet to alienate each other lol.
OK everybody calm your horses, no flame wars on feature requests needed, considering Ableton Live is one of the most popular pieces of software ever created, it is quite normal to compare and even wish for familarity changes.
If a grumbly old rat bag like me can say my piece without attacking others, so can everybody else.
So either say your piece about how scenes works, how it could or should work, without attacking others, or move on
We dont have enough users here yet to alienate each other,
Amen
I’m used to Ableton, I’v been using it for many years.. I like the horizontal scenes of BM3 much more. Everyting horizontal is more uniform design..
My fried brain finds it odd that someone would prefer something they aren't used to? Kinda like enjoying driving on the other side of the road in a different country
I must be a freak of nature, just feels unnatural to me 
Would be easier to swallow if it enabled some kind of workflow improvement over ableton, but as it is it seems exactly the same, just flipped.
Like I said, I'm not coming from an 'I'm right, everyone else is wrong' kind of place. Would just like to see an option in settings at some point if it isn't too big a job to code that. Not suggesting it's super important or priority tho.
Thanks.
Done.