Are audio effects both in-line and insert effects?
I am rather confused about the effects behavior on audio tracks so I think I am missing something. The effects directly placed on audio tracks act as in-line as well as insert effects. What I mean is incoming audio is recorded with the effect in the audio file (in-line), and then when the track is played back the effect is then added again on top of the playback (insert). The track ends up with two iterations of the effect (when one does not turn off the effect before playback), with the behavior of the effect function being based on whether one is recording or playback. This is an odd set up to me.
I know if I want to monitor an effect while recording a dry signal I can use a send (which seems like a waste of a bus), but somehow configuring the audio track effect as an insert where I can monitor the effect in the signal while recording it dry seems to be the logical and easy way. What am I missing to do this?
Comments
First the way effects work is perfectly standard, this is how ‘Inserts’ work in any DAW, you can get ‘monitor’ effects in some DAWs, we dont have that capability.
Recording dry while listening wet is very easy, create a track with the effects so you can hear it wet, now create a second track with no effects but the same input as the other track, only record this dry (no effects) track
First thanks for clarifying that these effects do not behave the same way I have been accustom to as insert effects in Cubasis, Reaper, Logic, Live, GarageBand, Beatmaker 2, etc.
Thanks for the work around. For purposes of re-amping I have discovered the possibility of routing the clean recorded audio to the second audio track and will only hear the effected output of the second track if I mute the first track turn on the monitor on the second track. This excludes the need of a send bus, but it is not as easy of a solution as the track will not output to master so I would have to record to the the effected signal onto the second track first before I do a mix down, and then remember to turn off the effects before I start the mix down. Or I could send to a send before mixdown, but then I might as well just use the send in the first place.
Is there anything else I am missing here? It just seems it should be easier than this.
You and me both in the same situation. The setup is a little tedious too. I'm working with 6 outs and trying to find a way to keep the MASTER/MAIN OUT going and capture all the sounds through my headphone amplifier. I've been trying to even slipstream a second audio interface to workaround. Lol.
Sorry but re-amping is as simple as recording the dry track and then putting an effect on it, way too much over thinking going on here.
Inserts are inserts, they work exactly the same as Reaper etc
There are only 4 types of effects available in any software..
Inserts
Sends
Monitor
Offline
Oh. Guess I'm using the wrong terminology again. What's it called when you are reamplifing the source output post device effects processor (bypassed) and putting it back in a signal chain?
An insert, its just a later insert in the chain
@Laarz I don't have an idea what your setup is like, but it sounds like your doing what I'm doing. Not sure though. You have to create a second main out. And only possible with an audio interface with multiouts. And yes monitor has to be turned on for everything and banks themselves muted.
The original dry signal becomes the insert?
An insert is an effect on the original source, direct.
Give me an hour or two to get home, im gonna do a little diagram, seems it could be useful to a bunch of people
I've got a main out and eight audio tracks and a 9th letting me hear the main out through my headphones.
The 8 audio tracks are serving as monitors to my 8 banks and I hear the effects. The OP I think is saying you can't capture the audio effects from the banks to those audio tracks. Only by capturing the main out or from aux busses. Since we only have 8 aux busses to work with, we cant really do that we are trying to achieve.
If we are using the master out for 8 banks. We have to solo and mute in the mixer constantly. We also can't record the banks simultaneous as independent recordings with the effects (in the audio file itself)
We really just need infinite auxes like audio tracks. This would fix the original OP question I think (if I'm understanding correctly, I could be way off though)
Recording with monitoring an effect lets one play with how the effect, especially with amp sims, alters the tone and sound of ones instrument and hence the recorded performance. Afterwards it is then it is possible to make alterations on the basic effects set up as needed for mixing, which is re-amping. Recording dry and then adding an effect afterwards would just be hoping the effect works out to the performer's desire, why monitoring the effect is so important. This is standard digital recording operation.
Cubasis and Cubase calls the effects slots inserts, and they are non-destructive to the input signal. Reaper just calls them FX, and they do the same. The end is that, unless I am missing something, and the reason for the post, apparently Beatmaker 3 doesn't allow an easy way to do non destructive recording while monitoring an effect as most the other DAWs do, even Beatmaker 2, whatever name designation you give to the effect. I'm just calling it what Steinberg calls them.
It is very curious how you come about your information. A simple check will show what I am saying. However if do you have any more useful information I do appreciate it.
@Laarz the effects added to an audio track I dont believe get recorded. Are they doing this for you?
Ok, again, over thinking it, i shall quote my previous post...
Dry means no effects, wet means with effects, this is how you Re-amp.
Two tracks, same input, one no effects, one with effects, listen to the one with effects, record the one without effects, this way you can monitor the effects while you record, however the recording is made with no effects for Re-Amping later.
This is how it is achieved in any DAW unless you use a DI Hush set up, whereby the wet is on the left channel and the dry is on the right channel of a stereo track, you use a DI Hush plugin to simply switch between the two so that you can hear how your edit sounds, but that is using hardware DI and effects/amp.
I have been Re-Amping for near 30 years, trust me, the two track approach i posted above is what you want
I have no idea what this setup is or why yoy would even do it, are you saying that you route 8 banks to 8 Audio tracks and then monitor, just so you can have effects on those banks, that makes no sense ???? (i must be misunderstanding)
If you record with effects on the input, they are recorded (Inserts) we do not have monitor effects yet, most DAWs dont have them yet, so you just use the two track approach i posted above, its a standard set up.
Thanks for this. I probably have something entirely different being set up in regards to my previous post. I'm wanting to monitor certain banks with effects heard while the main out is being sent out and record this all at the same time. Lol.
Banks have their own mixer channel, just add effects to that ? (Inserts)
I do do that. What I'm saying is if the effects are housed in the banks I need to be able to monitor this separately from the main out and record them with effects. But since I'm listening to the input of the banks those 8 tracks don't record the effects. If I add the effects to the audio tracks. I hear the effects twice. I actually need both options. The ability to record the effects or non destructively. I'm working on getting it working. You may have helped tremendously. Studio is a mess.
Can you send me a project, I really dont understand at all.
When you say you need to be able to monitor separately, do you mean cueing ala DJ in headphones for previewing before playing ?
I also dont know what you mean by banks input, the only input a bank has is MIDI not audio ?
Just trying to get my head round what youre setting up.
When I get an opportunity to I'll PM you a build or you can just download the APC40 temp. Do you have an audio interface though? You won't be able to do what I'm trying to do without one. I think you may have answered it previously but im not sure yet.
It's not so much DJing as it is setting BM3 up for any performance situation. Specifically when working with more than one musician.
All the banks (however many) are where the music is controlled in a live performance/realtime production. All those are sent to an out (or many outs). Sometimes or often Aux Buses are used for this setup (but BM3 limits us to 8). Then I have 8 additional audio tracks monitoring those banks independently in real time and being sent to another out (or many outs) of my interface (a monitor mix/headphone preamp/separate FX processor/etc).
The issues get somewhat complex from here.
ISSUE ONE:
Monitor has to be turned on an audio track to see what's going on in the mix, forcing you to hear whatever it's listening to. There's no visual information being shown without monitor on. Very helpful and not implemented. This is also causing hearing two chains because I'm forced to monitor the audio track.
ISSUE TWO:
Muting/soloing in BM3 doesn't have an option to solo and mute independently from a monitored track and/or CUE. This is not necessarily a DJ thing, and mostly Abletons fault using the word "Cue" because traditionally it was/is used for DJing purposes. However, bands have started to use Ableton in live performance to produce tracks while on stage or in their studios. (Yes this is happening in the industry) This is where SOLO/CUE becomes silly powerful. BM3 is actually IMO better than Ableton in so many ways. And it boils down to workflow, mobility, and the fact iDevices are controllers themselves. A settings behavior or button would totally fix this limitation. I personally think "cue" is a bad word given music creation is changing, but that's what we have across all DAWs supporting the term.
ISSUE THREE:
) this also allowed the ability to not have to export and reimport. So that in itself is super powerful, but we need more auxiliary tracks to not waste slots reserved for send effects.
We can only hard capture the MAIN OUT and AUXES in BM3 at this time. Introduce recording an entire live performance to a single track and/or the ability to capture 8 auxillary tracks (which does capture the effects destructively
SUMMARY:
I'm trying to get this working with audio tracks instead do to certain current limitations. And because re-amping was one of my issues, it is why I responded to the thread in the first place.
Yeah i would just use an external hardware mixer personally.
I haven't forgotten about this by the way, It just went from a diagram to a full document/manual hahaha
Will take a smidge longer.
@5pinlink give me a shout if you ever need a graphic designer/typesetter to help compile all your copious notes and diagrams into a book. I could help you self-publish via Blurb.com
Tends to happen. You could write a book with just one concept. Lol.
I have no idea what any of that means, but i am sort of considering a Beatmaker Biblicus kind of deal, and on that note, here is a WIP of the effects routing usage pages, there are no screen grabs or diagrams yet, but should be clear enough.
Dropbox
Dude absolutely wonderful! Put this in resources make a Documentation category or something. Can I put this in my directory or do you plan on writing the first BM3 Bible?
Im not sure yet, I wrote the manual for MVerb that Intua put in the manual, and i have already pretty much written the manual for the eq, so i may just save it all and compile it in to a bible yeah.
Awesome work @5pinlink!!
@5pinlink I'm aware of these insert/send types of effects but didn't know at all that they had alternative terminology based on locale at all so thank you so much for this!
I have a few questions.
The offline effects you are talking about are in the EDIT screen I believe and yes can't be heard in real-time. My question is how or what are modulations, layers, tune, fine-tune, gain, pan, saturate, ADSR, and the separate filter type in Beatmaker3? Are they being utilized as an alternative insert effect method? Or are they of some other type and output differently (destructive/non-destructive to the original dry signal?)
Question two is related to Beatmaker 3 having one Bus (Main out). With my audio interface, I can set the output of a bank/track and the darn thing automatically changes red acting like a new bus to BM3. Is this actually creating an a new bus in BM3 or is BM3 just trying to make me understand its on a separate output? Just trying to clarify why it changes red in the first place. It's another out obviously, but this isn't the same as another bus correct?
So everything I'm trying to do is most likely with input effects, and now I see my problem. I can't send the out of an audio track into the in of another audio track or into an aux or a separate bus (out) to capture those effects destructively. I can do this in a few other DAWs. What is this called again?
You've been a big help man! Thanks!
Modulation/layers/tune etc are nothing at all to do with effects, they are part of the samplers structure.
You seem to be misunderstanding inserts entirely, i obviously haven't written it very well at all.
A bus is basically a selection of audio feeds being sent to a single mixer channel, so all the mixer channels being sent to the Main out is the Stereo bus.
What you are creating is individual outs, so think if you could add a bus where you are changing the individual outs, and a new mixer channel was created that received everything you changed to that bus (Bank outputs are actually buses, but i didn't want to confuse the situation by putting that in the document and preferred to just reference them as banks)
Buses are internal routing, basically sub mixes, nothing to do with individual outs
You can send the audio from one audio track to another audio track, the audio input is also pre mute state, so you can have audio track one with audio and effects on it and mute it, then route it to audio track two and turn monitor on, now you are hearing the effects on audio track one through audio track two.
But i really have no idea why you would want to do this ?