is Intua changing the direction of BM3 development (and what is was until last update) ?

Hi, I now this question has been lightly addressed over a few treads but in a bug report or, for me, about the impossibility to record midi out. But when I first used BM3 after the update, after the excitement of being able to finally use midi AU FX, came a huge disappointment, followed by a big frustration... and now it’s a questioning : why bother implementing midi AU FX if in the same time you get ride of midi routing ? Because no midi routing changes everything, and for what I could read on the forum (or couldn’t find), there seem to be a general approving (and some enthusiastic posts), or a lack of reaction. Don’t get me wrong, if the majority of users are satisfied, then I’m happy for Intua. What I could reproach is that Intua didn’t really communicate about this, and I think they should have because for me, loosing midi routing is a DRASTIC change and, if it stays that way, it really redefines the concept of BM3.
Again, maybe that’s just me, and the lack of reaction (there are few exceptions) indicates that maybe I’m making a big deal of it. But I posted this to see if people share the same concern, and maybe Intua would like to say a word about it.

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Comments

  • edited November 17

    I really miss midi routing too.

    For me it was one of the most standout cool features, and made Cubasis look like a toy

    If it's gone, then it's gone - I'll learn to live without it :(
    At least we are getting Midi effect recording in the next update, as confirmed today by Vincent!

  • @tk32 said:
    At least we are getting Midi effect recording in the next update, as confirmed today by Vincent!

    Already? That is awesome!

    BM3 is generally working smoothly for me these days but I have found some strange MIDI quirks/(bugs?) recently in my workflow — I’ll get my bug reports in ASAP if the March of progress is heating up!

  • edited November 17

    @tk32 said:
    I really miss midi routing too.

    For me it was one of the most standout cool features, and made Cubasis look like a toy

    If it's gone, then it's gone - I'll learn to live without it :(
    At least we are getting Midi effect recording in the next update, as confirmed today by Vincent!

    Where ?!
    Edit found it !

  • @tk32 said:
    I really miss midi routing too.

    For me it was one of the most standout cool features, and made Cubasis look like a toy

    Exactly, midi routing was fantastic and, among other features (the sampler, the banks...), it gave BM3 its personality and made it so unique. Getting the midi FX recording was absolutely necessary, updating BM3 with AU midi fx without being able to record it is an aberration....
    But again, I’d really like to know what led Intua to make the decision to remove MIDI routing. Moreover, midi routing is booming on iOS, apps like apeMatrix or AUM (in its next update midi routing is improved and ease) prove what can be made in terms of midi possibilities on iOS.
    There is a lot of things I’m expecting to be implemented or improved since BM3 exists, but I never thought something (absolutely great) which was already there would be removed...

  • I have heard that ‘route midi’ may work well for some of this. Yes, I know it is another AU workaround (and even bringing it up may result in nerd groans etc ;) ) but perhaps it might help some folks.

    RouteMIDI by Brian Howarth
    https://itunes.apple.com/app/id1347099452?mt=8&uo=8&at=11l4Kv

  • Lets all just hold on and see what comes in the updates, no need to panic just yet, the MIDI AU support is currently terrible yes, nobody is arguing that, but lets see where it goes.

  • @5pinlink said:
    Lets all just hold on and see what comes in the updates, no need to panic just yet, the MIDI AU support is currently terrible yes, nobody is arguing that, but lets see where it goes.

    For me if I can just record it then that is all I want. No need for crazy routing for this meat n potatoes boy.

  • Its very obvious that a lot of people want the modularity and routing, Vincent has already said that is not happening, so we have to move on and see what happens with updates.

  • +1 on missing the old modular style routing. AUM's a lot more interesting and convenient for various midi au use cases now.

  • @5pinlink said:
    Its very obvious that a lot of people want the modularity and routing, Vincent has already said that is not happening, so we have to move on and see what happens with updates.

    At least we are fixed. By the way, where on the forum may I read direct statement from the developers ? What Vincent said, was it an answer to a post or is there a specific thread for that ? (forums are a great place to learn but it’s such time consuming...)

  • edited November 18

    @cyril777 said:

    @5pinlink said:
    Its very obvious that a lot of people want the modularity and routing, Vincent has already said that is not happening, so we have to move on and see what happens with updates.

    At least we are fixed. By the way, where on the forum may I read direct statement from the developers ? What Vincent said, was it an answer to a post or is there a specific thread for that ? (forums are a great place to learn but it’s such time consuming...)

    Hey @cyril777 ..to read direct statements from the devs find a discussion that Vincent or Matthieu etc participated in, click on their name and on the right hand side you'll see 'Discussions' and 'Comments'. Click to see a list.
    ...here's the comment from Vincent you were looking for i believe.

    @vincent said:
    Hello there,
    That's a great review, thank you!
    We'll add an option for recording MIDI effect chain output in the next update.
    All the best,
    Vincent B.

  • Hey @cyril777 ..to read direct statements from the devs find a discussion that Vincent or Matthieu etc participated in, click on their name and on the right hand side you'll see 'Discussions' and 'Comments'. Click to see a list.
    ...here's the comment from Vincent you were looking for i believe.

    @vincent said:
    Hello there,
    That's a great review, thank you!
    We'll add an option for recording MIDI effect chain output in the next update.
    All the best,
    Vincent B.

    Thank you!

  • I just want BM3 to be a solid sampler, with the transient detection and exporting of sliced samples I can do away with the awkward virsyn reslice and just focus on making awesome banks from IOS synths and drum kits to use either in BM3, Grooverider or Gadget.

    For midi stuff I think ApeMatrix is the way to go.

    Weirdly when it comes to AU BM3 is working better than Cuba’s now.

    As far as AU Midi goes that can just be sent to an audio track and sequences as audio.

    BM3 will probably never work as a live performance tool. Perhaps Ableton on a PC is the best option.

  • @LucidMusicInc said:
    I just want BM3 to be a solid sampler, with the transient detection and exporting of sliced samples I can do away with the awkward virsyn reslice and just focus on making awesome banks from IOS synths and drum kits to use either in BM3, Grooverider or Gadget.

    it’s very interesting, for me, what you’re saying about your utilisation of BM3. It gives me new angles on how BM3 can be used to produce audio material for other apps. I always used my other apps to fill BM2/3, so thank you for pointing that out.

    For midi stuff I think ApeMatrix is the way to go.

    Sure, but it’s more an experimentation place, or a live / performance app. I love working with midi, but I need to edit the result, and be able to edit everything, notes, automations....

    Weirdly when it comes to AU BM3 is working better than Cuba’s now.

    I never really got into Cubasis, I never worked seriously with it. I fell in love with BM2, and the combination BM2/Auria was everything I needed to achieve a track. But why do you find BM3 more efficient with AU than Cubasis ? It hurts me to admit this, because my love affair with BM is not finished 🤪, but when it comes to display AU plugins, recording and editing, recording automation and edit automation.... it’s way better on Cubasis. The UI is smooth (pinching the screen for zooming), editing AU automation is way more accurate and precise, even there’s been some progress with the last BM3 update. And of course, I don’t want to put in the comparison the impossibility to record AU plugins, since it’s the purpose of my post and now we know that it’s gonna be possible in the next update.

    As far as AU Midi goes that can just be sent to an audio track and sequences as audio.

    If I didn’t know now that midi recording will be available in the next update, I would have said that recording AU midi out to audio is NOT the solution. Once recorded in audio, no further editing and your project risks to gain a tremendous amount of weight...

  • What does OP mean by "no midi routing"? Does this mean routing midi in and out between other ios app?

    I have not installed this update. As my usual I want to figure first out how this might affect my current projects... I don't see a clear description of this change on the App store description...

  • I wish i had your discipline @mre8 - i caved in and hit update after holding out for only 5 minutes. Lol

    Midi routing in this context is where you are free to load midi plugins onto an empty pad, and then rout the midi output into another pad, or plugin, and so on and so on. It allowed you to chain au plugins in a less contained way.

    Unless your tracks have unusual midi plugin configurations, you're probably going to be ok to upgrade... but my honest suggestion is to hold out a bit longer as there sounds to be some further refinements to the system coming imminently.

    My advice.. probably stay on 3.10 a bit longer if you can

  • @tk32 said:
    I wish i had your discipline @mre8 - i caved in and hit update after holding out for only 5 minutes. Lol

    Midi routing in this context is where you are free to load midi plugins onto an empty pad, and then rout the midi output into another pad, or plugin, and so on and so on. It allowed you to chain au plugins in a less contained way.

    Unless your tracks have unusual midi plugin configurations, you're probably going to be ok to upgrade... but my honest suggestion is to hold out a bit longer as there sounds to be some further refinements to the system coming imminently.

    My advice.. probably stay on 3.10 a bit longer if you can

    ah yes... i used this kind of often... after years... having new thoughts about the role of iOS production in music production life... ( see my general post just now...)

  • edited November 20

    @mre8 said:
    What does OP mean by "no midi routing"? Does this mean routing midi in and out between other ios app?

    I have not installed this update. As my usual I want to figure first out how this might affect my current projects... I don't see a clear description of this change on the App store description...

    Don't get sucked into the over-dramatisation of this update. Very little has functionally changed in most peoples workflows (yeah sure, there'll be edge cases..).

    I use BM3 to receive external MIDI and trigger BM3 instruments, to pass MIDI 'thru' from controller to external devices and apps, to record incoming MIDI from those same locations and to play back internal and external instruments from that recorded MIDI data. Seems like a lot of routing to me, and I'm not having any issues on 3.12. In fact I didn't notice any difference in MIDI functionality at all apart from it's now possible to also use MIDI FX AU's in a really intuitive and easy to set up way!

    From what I can gather (I don't really do this so not sure) you can't rout MIDI internally inside BM3 between different pads anymore (unless you use extra external apps, and then you can..).

  • I haven’t tested it, since I don’t often revisit older projects, but it seems like due to the changes in midi routing backward compatibility might be a serious issue?

  • @denx said:
    I haven’t tested it, since I don’t often revisit older projects, but it seems like due to the changes in midi routing backward compatibility might be a serious issue?

    exactly

  • @OscarSouth said:

    @mre8 said:
    What does OP mean by "no midi routing"? Does this mean routing midi in and out between other ios app?

    I have not installed this update. As my usual I want to figure first out how this might affect my current projects... I don't see a clear description of this change on the App store description...

    Don't get sucked into the over-dramatisation of this update. Very little has functionally changed in most peoples workflows (yeah sure, there'll be edge cases..).

    I use BM3 to receive external MIDI and trigger BM3 instruments, to pass MIDI 'thru' from controller to external devices and apps, to record incoming MIDI from those same locations and to play back internal and external instruments from that recorded MIDI data. Seems like a lot of routing to me, and I'm not having any issues on 3.12. In fact I didn't notice any difference in MIDI functionality at all apart from it's now possible to also use MIDI FX AU's in a really intuitive and easy to set up way!

    From what I can gather (I don't really do this so not sure) you can't rout MIDI internally inside BM3 between different pads anymore (unless you use extra external apps, and then you can..).

    i see.. maybe not that dramatic of a change... I DID use pad to pad routing of midi at times for some weird work arounds I needed... but I guess it's not such a big deal... I already have ongoing issues that affect me more in terms of my personal workflow desires... and I just don't have the drive or energy to change certain things about the way I work...

  • edited November 20

    Look at it this way, Vincent has said no internal routing is possible, so you can stick with 3.0.10 forever or update and be done with it, while i dont agree with @OscarSouth that this implementation is more intuitive, it simply does not matter, Vincent has said internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve, lets move on.

  • edited November 21

    @cyril777

    I still think Cubasis has many advantages over BM3, but in terms of the graphical rendering of the UI BM3 does a better job and Cubasis has on more than a few cases produced stuck notes when BM3 hasn’t yet

    Also Cubasis only has one midi effect slot whereas BM3 can chain midi effects

  • I'm really sad to see internal MIDI routing go away.

    Like everything in BeatMaker, things are really hard to understand at first, but once you understand them it gets really powerful. But I'm not so sure about removing all of this just for the sake of simplifying.

    I guess the reasoning is that 80% of the current use cases are addressed with MIDI AU inserts (at least once we get the update which allows recording MIDI output). But those 20% of the remaining use cases are still relevant I'd say. How in the world would one use Rozeta LFO now inside BeatMaker? Am I missing anything?

  • @blueveek said:
    I'm really sad to see internal MIDI routing go away.

    Like everything in BeatMaker, things are really hard to understand at first, but once you understand them it gets really powerful. But I'm not so sure about removing all of this just for the sake of simplifying.

    I guess the reasoning is that 80% of the current use cases are addressed with MIDI AU inserts (at least once we get the update which allows recording MIDI output). But those 20% of the remaining use cases are still relevant I'd say. How in the world would one use Rozeta LFO now inside BeatMaker? Am I missing anything?

    I don't think the case was simplifying things in terms of UI / UX but helping overall sync tightness...? I am not totally sure on that but that is how I took it.

  • @Audiogus said:

    I don't think the case was simplifying things in terms of UI / UX but helping overall sync tightness...? I am not totally sure on that but that is how I took it.

    I'd be extremely surprised if that were true. But alas, I don't know the inner workings of Intua's codebase.

    @5pinlink said:
    Look at it this way, Vincent has said no internal routing is possible, so you can stick with 3.0.10 forever or update and be done with it, while i dont agree with @OscarSouth that this implementation is more intuitive, it simply does not matter, Vincent has said internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve, lets move on.

    I wasn't able to find where @vincent said "internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve" or " no internal routing is possible". This seems fairly drastic, considering how powerful the iPad's hardware is (relatively speaking), and how other apps manage to do it quite well.

    As far as I can tell, he said that it's not currently possible, and at least there's a planned update (hopefully soon) which allows recording MIDI AU output. But I'd love some clarity on this, so maybe you can link to a comment I couldn't find?

  • edited November 21

    @blueveek said:

    @Audiogus said:

    I don't think the case was simplifying things in terms of UI / UX but helping overall sync tightness...? I am not totally sure on that but that is how I took it.

    I'd be extremely surprised if that were true. But alas, I don't know the inner workings of Intua's codebase.

    @5pinlink said:
    Look at it this way, Vincent has said no internal routing is possible, so you can stick with 3.0.10 forever or update and be done with it, while i dont agree with @OscarSouth that this implementation is more intuitive, it simply does not matter, Vincent has said internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve, lets move on.

    I wasn't able to find where @vincent said "internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve" or " no internal routing is possible". This seems fairly drastic, considering how powerful the iPad's hardware is (relatively speaking), and how other apps manage to do it quite well.

    As far as I can tell, he said that it's not currently possible, and at least there's a planned update (hopefully soon) which allows recording MIDI AU output. But I'd love some clarity on this, so maybe you can link to a comment I couldn't find?

    Oh yah it was pretty clearly said that MIDI AU recording would be possible. This is not to say that any sort of advanced routing was promised though.

  • @blueveek said:

    @Audiogus said:

    I don't think the case was simplifying things in terms of UI / UX but helping overall sync tightness...? I am not totally sure on that but that is how I took it.

    I'd be extremely surprised if that were true. But alas, I don't know the inner workings of Intua's codebase.

    @5pinlink said:
    Look at it this way, Vincent has said no internal routing is possible, so you can stick with 3.0.10 forever or update and be done with it, while i dont agree with @OscarSouth that this implementation is more intuitive, it simply does not matter, Vincent has said internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve, lets move on.

    I wasn't able to find where @vincent said "internal MIDI routing is not something he can achieve" or " no internal routing is possible". This seems fairly drastic, considering how powerful the iPad's hardware is (relatively speaking), and how other apps manage to do it quite well.

    As far as I can tell, he said that it's not currently possible, and at least there's a planned update (hopefully soon) which allows recording MIDI AU output. But I'd love some clarity on this, so maybe you can link to a comment I couldn't find?

    Actually he said and i quote
    "Hello one and all,

    We're submitting a hot fix for the undo bug, thanks for catching it quickly !

    Also I wanted to clarify the decision behind the new MIDI effect way of doing things.
    The virtual MIDI port other DAWs and we chose to create for every AU Plugin was a good workaround and I understand that it brought flexibility as well.
    That being said, it necessarily introduces latency: AU generated events would then be processed at next interruption, later by 1024 frames if this was the set latency.

    Sorry for getting technical here but I understand how you may feel and want to assure you this was for the best of reasons: precision.

    Looking on the bright side, timings are now tight, MIDI effects can be chained, and set on a Bank or a Pad, without replacing your previously set AU Instrument.
    You can also use the Link group option for Pads if you want them to receive the same MIDI data (Setting your MIDI effects on the parent Bank).

    There are surely loads of improvements to be made, and we're listening.

    Thanks again for your patience,

    All the best,
    Vincent B."
    That neither mentions or implies not_currently_possible, but does heavily imply never without latency, so yes, he said he can't achieve it, now let's move on.
    (Sorry if that sounds harsh, but i have just spent over 12 hours trying to capture an edge case bug on screen recording, because it seems nowadays I have to provide proof of everything in this forum)

  • Thanks for the quote @5pinlink, this certainly makes things a bit clearer. For me it's not about proof (at least in this thread), it's about being precise, and we are all predisposed interpret the same words differently :)

    The "Link group option for Pads" for making them receive the same MIDI data is a huge deal that I didn't know about. This potentially mitigates a whole set of use cases I thought were unaddressed in the new update.

    If you don't mind me asking, were are these communications happening? Is it here on the forum, or some mailing list? There seem to be tons of insights there that aren't readily available to the outside world.

  • That is from a thread that got closed over at the AB forum, there is little insight available to anybody outside of the public statements made by Intua, if anybody says they know more and they don't work for Intua, they do not and should be ignored.

    I can only say this so many times, Vincent has said no, he can not implement it without adding latency, it does not matter what anybody else says, or what they used in some other version that was in beta in some galaxy far far away, Vincent said he can't do it without a full buffer of latency, do i like that, no, but it is what it is.

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