Multisamples, create an instrument for BM3

Hello,
I´m kinda new to BM3, I'll introduce myself and what I'm doing....
I´ve started traveling for a while (3 months ago) and I really needed a "portable" setup, so I got an op1, and ipad 2018 and a korg minilogue, and also a focusrite scarlett, that gear is always with me. I always used the computer to make music so I'm used to real "instruments" emulations, like the ones you can find on Reason's bass refill or some Kontakt stuff. I know those can be quite complex to program and map, but I'm not looking for the ultimate-realistic sampled instrument....some stuff using just 1 sample on the op1 sounds great. I want to create a P-bass, Jazz bass patch using the samples I've already have on my computer (samples from libraries, already at different velocities, etc), so the question is, What is the best approach to create instruments on BM3?

Comments

  • Add the samples to the same layer on a single pad, and use the mappings page to map the samples accordingly, for notes and velocities. Is that what you’re getting at? I don’t want to go into a whole spiel about how that works in detail if I’m way off base or you already know how to do that. =)

  • Open the sample mapper for a layer like @ronji suggests, then drag n drop the samples from the browser to the note you want, much the same as any desktop sampler.

  • @ronji said:
    Add the samples to the same layer on a single pad, and use the mappings page to map the samples accordingly, for notes and velocities. Is that what you’re getting at? I don’t want to go into a whole spiel about how that works in detail if I’m way off base or you already know how to do that. =)

    Thank you @ronji , I was kinda doing that. I´m currently trying to remap a F9 audio Ableton toolkit Bass preset, they sound really good so I wanted to remap them into BM.

    I´m just curious how they made it. Check these two pictures, correct me if I´m wrong , but it seems the different samples are all mapped from 0 to 127?


  • That mapping makes no sense, all the samples are listed in octaves but mapped over only one octave ?

  • edited August 2018

    This might help you get closer to what you're after? 🤗😁👊

  • I'm not familiar with that UI, but the top photo (Velocity) seems to indicate that each layer responds to velocities from 0 to 127.
    Bottom photo (Key) seems to indicate that there are 5 samples per....uhhh...I don't know. I was initially thinking velocity-switching or round-robin playback, but that ain't it, I guess.

    So that's probably not the best example for learning sample-mapping in BM3.

    Easiest method may be to analyze one of the melodic instruments in the stock BM3 library.

    You need the key-root (aka index) for each sample, so that you know it's pitch (so that it's in tune when you map it and play it). Then the key-range, i.e.-the Lowest-key and the Highest-key that the sample should play.
    Too wide a range may sound crappy for acoustic instruments, i.e. the sample will play too quickly if the High-key is too high.
    I usually map a sample's range more to left than to the right (i.e.-go lower in pitch versus vs higher) when I only have 3 or 4 samples per octave.

  • It is 5 octaves of samples @MSandoval and somebody has mapped them all to the same octave to "Phatten" it up, pretty pointless to be honest.

  • That makes sense. Labeling is wierd. What software is that btw?

  • edited August 2018

    Ableton Live i assume from the poster referring to trying to remap ?

  • Yes, it's Ableton.

  • edited August 2018

    Thanks everyone for their answers. @MSandoval thank you for the example
    So to see if I´m understanding correctly....I could just set this up like in Ableton....Even having the 5 samples per range mapped... just curious why from E1 to E5 the region seems to be longer compared the one that goes from G1 to G5. @DeanDaughters I´ll def check this video out!, I really want to get into this, and bring some stuff from my pc to BM

  • @DeanDaughters thanks for the multi sample video dude! Very good masterclass!

  • I haven't watched the video yet, but I would still definitely recommend checking out anything @DeanDaughters has posted to his YouTube channel! I'm also confused by those mappings in Ableton. I'll admit I never used that feature in Ableton and I'm still a novice in BM3, but it looks like E1-5 are all mapped to A0 thru E1, and G1-5 are mapped to F1 thru G1. Seems odd. You can map them the same odd way in BM3, but I don't think I would recommend it.

  • edited September 2018

    It's key-mapping is definitely not the norm, but is interesting as a 1st test for @ulonix or anybody interesting in analyzing it and learning new methods and tricks.

    It looks like the key-root for the 1st of each of the 5 samples is at E1, G1, A1, B1, D2, & E2 respectively, but the names on the left don't correspond. Why name it "Jazz Bass DD 1" but map it's key-root to D2? Keep reading.

    "Jazz Bass E 1': key-root: E1; key-range: A0-E1.
    The key-range may be longer for multiple reasons: a very popular method is to max-out the range of the lowest (& highest) sample when mapping them. Or it could be that it sounds fine and doesn't need more samples, etc.

    It's a balancing act: recording each key/fret would be ideal, but the work involved in mapping all of those samples is very time-consuming, and more samples takes up more system resources, like RAM, disk space, & CPU. All of which the iPad is way behind when compared to a computer.

    An 'economical' & popular method for sampling a synth is to sample 2, 3, or 4 keys in each octave: (C, F#) or (C, E, G#) or (C, D#4, F#4, A). Notice how there are identically numbered gaps between each sampled key. Later when mapping the samples, set the key-range of each sample to fill up the gaps. A good practice is to set the key-range to go more to left than to the right of key-center (i.e.-when necessary, go lower in pitch versus vs going higher since it usually sounds better when going lower. Samples play faster and may finish too quickly when pitched too high.)

    But different sound sources may require more samples, i.e.-for a realistic piano, sampling each key, at different velocities, with and without the damper & sustain pedals, results in a huge number of samples, each of which needs to be edited, and later would need to be put into multiple groups and layers, and then each one needs to be mapped. This takes an exorbitant amount of time for most people, but thankfully there are AUv3 apps like Ravensoft or Korg Module, plus sample packs for specific samplers, though I wish there were more for BM3, considering how popular it's become.

    Here's an 'economical' Piano. I sampled 3 keys per octave (C#, F, A). It's 10MB.
    https://intua.net/forums/discussion/6919

    Think about it, KQ Dixie AUv3 FM synth is 2.7MB, and can make an almost infinite number of sounds, while my crappy sampled Piano is 10MB and can only make a few sounds (using BM3's sample+synthesis). So the magic comes from doing unorthodox stuff like what F9 Audio apparently did for its Ableton Live Bass patch. Or creating gamelan kits, tuned percussion, bowed cymbals, etc., ignoring the chromatic scale and experiment with breaking the rules. Kontakt Player's free KINETIC TREATS is a good example of this. Plus phrase sampling and sample slicing is fun too.

    Remember when the Yamaha A3000 came out? It's phrase sampler tricks, loop remixing, & wild DJ-style effects were novel at the time, but soon after software samplers took over. But the A3000 was also a traditional multisampler underneath all of its modern tricks.

    Sorry about the wall of text. I enjoy talking about sampling, sharing ideas, learning new tricks, etc.
    I'd also like to see more commercial sample packs for BM3, plus some tools borrowed from ReCycle, Acid, Yamaha A-series samplers (plus Stockholm, ReSlice, & the upcoming AudioLayer on iOS).

  • @MSandoval quite interesting the layering done on this f9 audio toolkit, I will do some tests during the weekend and see what sounds better, I'll try to keep it simple tho

  • That’s a lot of useful info, so thanks for that! But I did understand most of that before, regarding mapping a sample to lower or higher notes to be economical. What I do not understand is why they have what appears to be 5 different octaves of the same note mapped to the same short range within one octave. Those samples look like they could easily cover a range of 5 octaves or more, but they appear to be mapped to only a couple octaves. That’s the limit of what I can assume just by looking at the mapping screenshot. =)

  • edited August 2018

    Anyone have a real piano? I’d like to hear it and play it :smile:

  • what the .....?

  • edited August 2018

    @ronji I believe @5pinlink mentioned earlier that it was for thickening-up the sound. Plus there could be other layers or zones that aren't pictured. It's hard to tell since I don't own the F9 Audio sample bank or Ableton Live. Maybe @ulonix can confirm that the unusual mapping is for fattening-up the sound, or something else.

    My long post was intended as simply a crash course on creating multisampled instruments, with best practices and not-so-good-ones, thinking-outside-of-the-box, for the people that don't post and are just looking for a quick answer. And obviously I like talking about sampling, learning new tricks, and passing them along, etc. I hope that people share more, like on the old boards trading Akai programs.

    Ahhhhrrrghhh, so let's go talk about AUv3s some more.

  • @MSandoval your passion for sampling (and talking about it) is much appreciated :) And we love your shared banks too

  • @tk32 said:
    @MSandoval your passion for sampling (and talking about it) is much appreciated :) And we love your shared banks too

    Ditto, great explanation earlier too for the search engine ;)
    But i am with @ronji on the mapping in that image, im pretty sure its mapped wrong and should be multi octave.

  • edited August 2018

    It's intriguing, isn't it? :) I'm very curious about this F9 Audio patch.

    Looking at several old NI samplepacks, I found some key-labeled wav files (sample-looped too!).
    I said, "Golly gee I think I'll use these in BM3!"

    But after mapping them, the pitch was way off. Checking the key-def files or using a tuner, I find that "D#2.wav" has a key-center of F3, etc. "Tune=0" too, so possibly some sound designers are hilarious.

    Wishlist: As AUv3 Effects: Tuner, BPM Detector, Oscilloscope. This would make this sampling/looping/instrument creation process easier. When using my own samples. B)

    Here's a pic that comes in handy: "MIDI NOTE NUMBERS when C3=60".

  • edited September 2018

    @mefisme said:
    Anyone have a real piano? I’d like to hear it and play it :smile:

    https://intua.net/forums/discussion/6919

    I do have 1000+ samples from real pianos (>1GB), but it would take weeks to create BM3 Bank Presets, so it may be better to just get Crudebyte, Ravensoft 275, or Korg Module. :o Or the $10 'Beatmaker Grand Piano' IAP inside BM3.

  • edited August 2018

    There are several 'serviceable' pianos in the soundfont-loading Bismark BS-16i AUv3, which includes a grand, upright, bright, e-piano, organ, harpsichord etc..

    It's about $7 to buy, works very stably in Beatmaker 3, and allows you access to the large library of homebrew SF2 soundfonts out there on the internet. Some of the orchestral ones you can download are over 1gb!!

    https://itunes.apple.com/app/bismark-bs-16i/id388149926?mt=8

  • @tk32 Do you know if bs-16i has disk streaming yet?
    There's lots of free *.sf2 files on the net: https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/

  • Unfortunately no disk streaming. It appears the whole soundfont is loaded into RAM.

    I've not had any issues with 3-4 instances of the default soundfont running in B3.

  • edited September 2018

    Ahh, thanks @tk32 It's been on my wishlist for a while, hopefully Santa is nice this year!

    I was inspired by this thread, so I edited my old thread to make it a guide for creating multiampled instruments.
    https://intua.net/forums/discussion/6919
    Mods or anyone with access, feel free to make it more legible, as it's hard to read and I'm not too good with HTML. Add tips & tricks, best practices, etc. there.
    Edit: looks like I made too many edits, now it needs to be approved (It doesn't exist).

  • edited August 2018

    I've created the bass patch, followed the same type of mapping but only using 1 layer of the sample. Def something is going on, because my version sounds a bit more mechanic and not so natural. I will try adding the extra layers (4+ samples each layer) to see if it improves. Also I've noticed the sustain is very short on the original one, and there's a tiny bit of saturation and comp in the instrument patch

  • Got an audio demo of the original that you could post to SoundCloud? Then maybe share the BM3 preset via Dropbox so someone can attempt to improve it? ;) You could even throw all the samples into its Samples folder and not key-map them.

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