BM3 keeps on loosing samples, how can I avoid that?

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  • This morning:
    https://streamable.com/vlnb6

    As somebody suggested, could it be that only first slices are properly managed?
    In this video, all slices up to 006 were found, where slices 015 and up are lost.

  • Yep. I’m following the instructions from the 2 housekeeping videos from now on.
    I’d like to understand how the system works, still.

    So, looking for samples and going through the folder structure I noticed that some sessions where created with associated « samples » and « recording » folders and others weren’t. Some recordings ended in the generic « Samples » folder.
    I still can’t figure out the overall file management concept.

  • edited February 3

    @pask74

    @pask74 said:
    Some recordings ended in the generic « Samples » folder.
    I still can’t figure out the overall file management concept.

    Are you sure these samples aren't somewhere inside the Session folder after all kind of saving?

    p.s. BM3 saves only files you had loaded in the Session.

  • edited February 3

    I’m recording to pads (so a bank) directly.
    Then chop.
    Then save the session (believing that the recorded audio would belong to this session somehow, which it did in some instances). I also thought that slices would be a soft version of the same audio files and that the session would recall them just fine, which BM3 did in some instances, but not all of them.
    It’s that apparently inconsistent behaviour that I’d like to figure out.

    As a precautionary measure, I’m going through all my sampling sessions now, chop and save banks with samples and patterns, so that these banks are somehow self-contained.
    For drumkits, as I’d like to avoid unnecessary file duplication, I save banks without samples and will make sure I won’t move drumkit sound files.

  • I can add that -
    1. The housekeeping method actually made me lose some projects so I’m not using it
    2. The Arturia audiofuse doesn’t have a dc filter on the hardware inputs(that’s the only audio interface in the market without it, not stated in the manual or the on their site) so maybe this is the cause of the problem, can you test recording with a different audio interface?

    P.S
    Unfortunately BM3 doesn’t have a dc offset removal tool right now and I’m not sure what iOS app does have it as an option.

  • @StudioES said:
    @bargale Did you try a HPF at 20Hz? 99% of the time it'll remove 100% of DC offset.

    The AudioFuse's outputs are DC-coupled, but are the inputs as well? If so, I wonder if it's intended for audio purity (SSL consoles) or for using hardware modular in software like Bitwig, Silent Way, Reaktor, etc.
    https://www.arturia.com/products/audio/audiofuse/overview

    They're not DC coupled,
    Not sure about the filter, if it's not fast enough that won't help... But... I only said something regarding dc because it may be an issue specific to the audiofuse sampling in bm3.
    The reason for not filtering the dc is because it induced latency ( i kid you not + just found out there's a revision 2 of the interface without any word about it from arturia and it fixed it)

  • @bargale said:

    @StudioES said:
    @bargale Did you try a HPF at 20Hz? 99% of the time it'll remove 100% of DC offset.

    The AudioFuse's outputs are DC-coupled, but are the inputs as well? If so, I wonder if it's intended for audio purity (SSL consoles) or for using hardware modular in software like Bitwig, Silent Way, Reaktor, etc.
    https://www.arturia.com/products/audio/audiofuse/overview

    They're not DC coupled,
    Not sure about the filter, if it's not fast enough that won't help... But... I only said something regarding dc because it may be an issue specific to the audiofuse sampling in bm3.
    The reason for not filtering the dc is because it induced latency ( i kid you not + just found out there's a revision 2 of the interface without any word about it from arturia and it fixed it)

    It seems very unlikely that the content of the audio files (i.e. DC offsets or not) would be implicated in BM3 losing track of files. I suspect it has to do how/whether the project and banks were stored.

  • That’s pretty deep stuff :-)
    The issues I’m experiencing seem to be caused by some sort of wonky files management rather than an audio related issue, I’d say. But you guys look more educated than me on DC filters, so...

    In any case, a few things should be addressed in future updates imho:

    • the « create session » function should create a clean folder structure for each session
    • BM3 files management should be clarified in the manual

    In most DAWs (ProTools), audio files are stored in an « audio files » subfolder in each session folder. These audio files can be manipulated non-destructively within the DAW (copied, chopped, stretched, whatever...) but they point to the original files without creating duplicates. This is why BM3 creating a new audio file for each sample slice sounds counterintuitive to me and should be clearly explained in the manual.
    I thought that BM3 slices were some sort of metadata (à la .rex).

  • @pask74 said:
    That’s pretty deep stuff :-)
    The issues I’m experiencing seem to be caused by some sort of wonky files management rather than an audio related issue, I’d say. But you guys look more educated than me on DC filters, so...

    In any case, a few things should be addressed in future updates imho:

    • the « create session » function should create a clean folder structure for each session
    • BM3 files management should be clarified in the manual

    In most DAWs (ProTools), audio files are stored in an « audio files » subfolder in each session folder. These audio files can be manipulated non-destructively within the DAW (copied, chopped, stretched, whatever...) but they point to the original files without creating duplicates. This is why BM3 creating a new audio file for each sample slice sounds counterintuitive to me and should be clearly explained in the manual.
    I thought that BM3 slices were some sort of metadata (à la .rex).

    Slices don't always create new files. Btw, it depends on how you go about doing it. I tend to use the methods that don't slice to separate files.

  • Ooookayyy, so that would contradict the housekeeping videos theory, then.
    This topic obviously needs clarification.

  • @StudioES said:
    @bargale Did you try a HPF at 20Hz? 99% of the time it'll remove 100% of DC offset.

    A steep 24db/oct HPF would come in handy, this is why I submitted a feature request for variable slope filters. The current HPF has a too gentle of a curve for radical bass cuts.

  • @pask74 said:
    Ooookayyy, so that would contradict the housekeeping videos theory, then.
    This topic obviously needs clarification.

    If you could do a screen capture of your process starting from creating your project to saving, closing and re-opening your project that would help immensely.

  • @StudioES said:
    A filtering capacitor isn't going to add any perceptible latency, unless you're in a laboratory working with ultra-sensitive equipment (i.e. - if you're a seismologist, work with X-band radar, etc.).

    The vast majority of consumer audio equipment have those filtering capacitors to eliminate loud pops from damaging mic preamps, AD converters, etc. Plus DC offset was a problem when recording to analog tape, but with digital audio it shouldn't be an issue. But, phase-issues, on the other hand, are a major problem, but not with most consumer music gear - but in patching together analog guitar pedals & Eurorack modules, for example.

    @bargale If that's the reason/excuse Arturia is giving for quietly releasing V2, then ummm...what the hell? Got a reference? It is very very interesting...I'm glad you brought it up.

    You want something funnier?
    The audio fuse has a phase switch knob, they don’t know the difference between phase and polarity 🙄
    Here’s an official statement -
    https://forum.arturia.com/index.php?topic=92396.0

    P.S I know dc offset is generally not a problem with daw’s but... you never know what can cause losing samples, could be a very strange bug, hopefully not.
    The way I work is I start a session, save and move forward with the session.
    That’s it.
    If you need to export a session with samples for backup, it’s possible and takes zero effort.

  • @bargale said:
    The way I work is I start a session, save and move forward with the session.
    That’s it.

    That's exactly what I used to do as well, and that should be standard.
    As I ran into these issues, I'm currently trying the Housekeeping method (even though it takes more time to create sessions). Let's see how this works for me. Now, @bargale just said that the Housekeeping method had him loose samples as well, so ... ??

    If developpers could chime in and comment on this topic, I guess that would help the whole community.

  • @pask74 said:

    @bargale said:
    The way I work is I start a session, save and move forward with the session.
    That’s it.

    That's exactly what I used to do as well, and that should be standard.
    As I ran into these issues, I'm currently trying the Housekeeping method (even though it takes more time to create sessions). Let's see how this works for me. Now, @bargale just said that the Housekeeping method had him loose samples as well, so ... ??

    If developpers could chime in and comment on this topic, I guess that would help the whole community.

    Sorry for a note, still have no described issue. I have 3 huge projects. There is a lot of samples. I permanently record synths, and chop them. I save banks, sessions just with the "save" button. Sometimes I do "Save As" with all options included, but not very often.
    3-4 times per week I do backups to external disk. BM3 has just an amazing workflow to zip sessions to external shares. (but I rename zip files in the endpoint, I add them date digits in the end.)/

    But I haven't catch the issue. My projects is huge - iPads battery drains too fast for an hour - to 50%.
    I'm not a supporter of many AUv3 instruments workflow. I try to freeze everything to samples. Then I record in BM3 very often. But can't catch the issue.

    What is the iPad model (with specs included) and iOS version do you have (from system information)?
    Could you write please?

  • @pask74
    In my own opinion, it is much better to call the developer if you have the step-by-step sequence reproducing a bug...
    When a user reports about "something" that happens "sometimes", with "an unknown reason", it is impossible to fix. (or very hard to fix)
    Let's try to find a sequence, record it as repeatable steps, then we can show something to devs.
    Let's try to catch it 1st ?

  • iPad Pro 10.5"
    Model MPDY2TY/A
    iOS 12.4.1

  • @pask74 said:
    iPad Pro 10.5"
    Model MPDY2TY/A
    iOS 12.4.1

    Thank you very much! Much better.
    I still think this is the "temporary" file issue.
    Normally we have no any access to the /var/mobile folder.
    1. The only user who did the jailbreak can access it, but it is absolutely not recommended because it causes many problems with the filesystem.
    2. Also, the first releases of iPadOS 13 have reports from users about the error looking very identical to this one. But you have the iOS 12. Then it is not your case :neutral:

    I hope you will find the step-by-step sequence produces the file loss.
    It would be useful for all, not only for the developer.
    Because until it fixed, we can avoid making these steps.

  • New (apparent) oddities. Please tell me that I’m the dumb one whose brain is wrongly wired but the following is confusing to me.

    I started using the Housekeeping technique yesterday. Browsing through the Sessions folder today, I noticed 2 sessions bearing the name « Template 01 ».

    These are 2 sessions that were created from the Template zipped file, as recommended in the Housekeeping videos. But they were both renamed immediately after unzipping.

    This is what I actually find following the first path:

    This is what I actually find following the second path:

    So, none of these sessions bear the name « Template 01 ».

    Opening the second session took me here:

    So, the active and open session doesn’t bear the « Template 01 » name either.

    Can someone show me where/why I’m wrong and how BM3 logical and consistent is, please?
    I want to believe in my lovely portable 2020 BM3-based setup.

    Thanks

  • I've made some more tests about BM3's folder structure behaviour:

    When creating a new Session, a session file is created. If you sample on a pad without first saving as, the session bearing the creation date as default name is stored under Documents>Unsaved sessions and a recordings>YYYYMMDD subfolder structure is created to accomodate the audio.
    If you then save as, the audio remains in that unsaved session folder unless you tick the "copy samples" option, in which case a "samples" subfolder is created next to the newly created session.

    When multiple sessions are created the same day, all of them involving recording audio before saving as, BM3 creates only 1 single session file for all of them (?) and stores all recorded audio in a unique "recordings" subfolder.
    I would have expected BM3 to create 1 unsaved session file per newly created session instead.

  • @pask74 said:
    New (apparent) oddities. Please tell me that I’m the dumb one whose brain is wrongly wired but the following is confusing to me.

    I started using the Housekeeping technique yesterday. Browsing through the Sessions folder today, I noticed 2 sessions bearing the name « Template 01 ».

    These are 2 sessions that were created from the Template zipped file, as recommended in the Housekeeping videos. But they were both renamed immediately after unzipping.

    This is what I actually find following the first path:

    This is what I actually find following the second path:

    So, none of these sessions bear the name « Template 01 ».

    Opening the second session took me here:

    So, the active and open session doesn’t bear the « Template 01 » name either.

    Can someone show me where/why I’m wrong and how BM3 logical and consistent is, please?
    I want to believe in my lovely portable 2020 BM3-based setup.

    Thanks

    It would help us help you, if you would screen capture your process so that we can see your steps.

  • edited February 5

    I've just ran into lost samples again (with a pretty intricate workflow, I must say) and managed to screengrab this, let me prepare a video.

  • @easelec said:
    It would help us help you, if you would screen capture your process so that we can see your steps.

    I can screencapture this if you want but the screenshots show exactly each steps I've followed.

  • @pask74 said:
    I think I know how to reproduce the original issue:

    Create a session
    Sample audio on a pad
    Save (the audio remains in the default Unsaved sessions>recordings subfolder
    Process the audio from the newly created session
    Save
    Quit

    Relaunch
    BM3 has neither created a "samples" folder in the newly created Session folder to store the processed sample nor stored the processed audio in the Unsaved sessions>samples subfolder
    -> Sample not found message

    And the search function has nothing to look for, so it only returns the un-processed audio file as a search result.

    As I often normalized my samples before chopping them, I was under the impression that the slicing process was causing the issue.

    Great. Then we should find something. Thanks

  • @roman_che said:
    Great. Then we should find something. Thanks

    Well, I'm not so sure as I couldn't reproduce this situation again.
    This is where the random thing rears its head and makes it difficult to corner the issue.

    I ran into missing files fiddling with sessions in the afternoon and luckily was recording the iPad activity, so I'm putting a video together for your consideration.

  • edited February 5

    So, I accidentally ran into missing samples situations this afternoon and put this video together so that you guys can follow the process.
    Note: I'm not saying that this process is the one that got me into trouble but at least we can have an example of a situation that leads to lost samples.
    Now that I have a better understanding of how BM3 manages audio files, I'll be more careful and will report any new situation.

    https://streamable.com/m7uer

  • @pask74 said:
    So, I accidentally ran into missing samples situations this afternoon and put this video together so that you guys can follow the process.
    Note: I'm not saying that this process is the one that got me into trouble but at least we can have an example of a situation leads to lost samples.
    Now that I have a better understanding of how BM3 manages audio files, I'll be more careful and will report any new situation.

    https://streamable.com/m7uer

    I haven't had a chance to see if I can reproduce the problem. I will try that in a bit when I am back where my iPad is.

    Have you tried using the Re-Scan Database function? I wonder if you had tried that when the problem first happened if that might have helped. Although, it might be that the unsaved session thing starts a chain of badness when sampling into the app.

    A couple of observations. It does seem like there is a bug in there. AND it seems like, you can probably avoid it by changing your workflow. I notice that once you ran into a problem, you kept going. My guess is that if one has a situation where BM3 (or any app) has started losing track of files, it is probably best to try to correct the situation rather than soldier on.

    I wonder if you had chosen to Copy Samples when saving the situation if that would have gotten things fixed.

    In any case, perhaps if you make sure to create and save a session before starting sampling that will solve things so that you don't run into problems going forward.

  • @pask74 said:
    So, I accidentally ran into missing samples situations this afternoon and put this video together so that you guys can follow the process.
    Note: I'm not saying that this process is the one that got me into trouble but at least we can have an example of a situation that leads to lost samples.
    Now that I have a better understanding of how BM3 manages audio files, I'll be more careful and will report any new situation.

    https://streamable.com/m7uer

    Thank you very much! Looks like you had found something.
    This is about the workflow.
    I guess it also the problem of iOS ideology. The most iOS apps have the "autosave" feature. It is ok for mobile devices. This is why we don't care now about "saving".

    At first time (when I just bought my 1st iPad 4), it infuriated me (you didn’t have to click “save” - wtf?).
    I felt "incomplete." I always had to click "save" - a habit over years from the PC. By the time, I got to the fact that IOS does not need to "save" anything. Everything is saved by itself.

    But BM3 is another guy.
    Because "auto-save everything" is a bad idea.

    But anyway, thanks again! Keep this video here, please :smiley:

  • I was trying to reproduce that bug, this is why I kept fiddling around.
    I probably went straight into sampling the first day I received my audio interface and forgot to save first, this has probably caused a part of the issues.
    Now, I also ran into issues when saving first and sampling next. I’ve found samples of sessions into the Recordings folders of other sessions, etc which I can’t really explain so far.

    I didn’t try rescan database and probably should have.

    I believe that copying samples would have helped but shouldn’t we be given the option to move the associated audio files, too?

  • edited February 5

    My takeaways so far:

    Always start by creating a new Session and save it right away.
    Make sure that the audio recordings are actually located in the Recordings subfolder.
    Make sure that destructively edited audio files have been actually created in the session’s Samples folder.
    If you want to create a re-useable bank that contains its sounds, save it including samples.

    The Housekeeping method hasn’t worked that well for me (but I may give it another try).

    There is still a malfunction as these saved session Test 05 samples 002 and 003 shouldn’t have been lost anyways.

    I think that when creating a new session from an Unsaved session, there should be a message saying « You have generated audio files associated with the session you are about to create, would you like to move them into your new session folder? ».
    I think that the default behavior should definitely not be keeping them in the Unsaved sessions folder in any case.

    I still wonder why we can’t search for samples [001] etc. using the Search function in the Samples directory (not being able to search samples in Samples is rather counterintuitive).

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